Low tiered characters.

[Blood Hawk]

What are your guys' thoughts on low tier characters? Do you think the people who main one are wrong in trying to use them at a high level solely, expecting to someday win a large scale tournament?

I personally find low tier players inspiring. When watching someone like Neo take the character Roy, who is pretty bad and use him in an MLG without a secondary and place respectively high, it's quite a sight to behold. Considering who he was working with, I think that is pretty amazing in itself.

One thing I don't quite understand is why people put themselves through the pain of trying to solely main that lower tiered character? Is it extreme love for that character that keeps them from rage quitting or perhaps they are just too proud to pick up a secondary even if it would help them place higher?

As you all know, in Melee and Brawl, I main two characters in each game that are both placed at the top of the mid tier. Lucario and Falcon respectively. Both are good characters, but have obvious recovery flaws that prevent them from ever reaching those high tier rankings. Even with these characters some match ups have required me to pick up a secondary. Those two match ups being Fox in Melee and Metaknight in Brawl.

Even though both my characters fare well against these match ups at the highest levels, it gets to the point where it's more of a pain to go through the hassle of winning a very close game when you can just pick up a character who can more easily deal with it. I've actually been known to 3 stock Metaknights with my Snake when they have beaten my Lucario by 2 stocks or so due to recovery gimping. Same thing occurred when I started using Marth to combat Foxes that gave my Falcon trouble.

That being said, I can't possibly see what drives a low tier main to want to solely main a character with that much adversity to overcome and expect to win with them. I can totally see people like Taj that love a character, but accept the fact they aren't ever going to win with their main solo. Doesn't mean you can't still use him in friendlies and some of the characters better match ups in tourney while still using a higher tiered character to actually get you to where you want to go. Neo is the same having picked up Marth later in his career. All I seem to hear is, "How could you betray Lucario and or Falcon and pick up X character! D:" I personally think that is scrub mentality. It's not like you can't still be the best with your main and use him for his better match ups. I really don't think it's betraying as much as it's being smart.

Using a solo low tier and nothing else and the guilt trip thing. I'd really love to hear your thoughts on both matters if you care to share them.
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[HTN DarkYoshi]

Based on the tiers, I know Yoshi is down there. At least, I think he's low tier. I use Yoshi solely because he is my favorite character to use, from all three games. Sure, he most likely won't win MLG events, but I don't play SSBB competitively like that. The occational toruny at Save Point, sure, but not pro gaming like MLG. Personally, I would love to see myself get Yoshi to win, just to prove a point that such an under used character can overcome the odds. Where there's a will, there's a way. It's never impossible, just improbable. However, I don't just use Yoshi. I do have a couple other characters, for basically a better match up. But other than that, I can't say I'll use high tier character's, just because they are good. To me, seeing a lot of Marths, Meta Knights, Foxes and the like gets really old really fast.

But do keep in mind, tiers are for ______. If you have watched the flash movie on Newgrounds, titled Smash Kingdom or Smash Kingdom 2 (can't remember which one does it), then you will understand why I left that part blank and you'll understand why I said it. Personally, I love that slogan. ^_^
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I am a Highly Trained Newbie! I am Dark Yoshi. Prepare yourself! HTN shall prevail.



Konota owns you at any video game! Especially the Street Fighter series.

[Aggro]

That slogan pisses me off, honestly. The slogan comes off as elitist, like "Oh, tiers?, we don't believe in tiers here, we just play the game pure, like Sakurai intended" Get out my face with that *&%$. Anyone who thinks the tiers are stupid doesn't understand what the tiers are supposed to represent. Tiers are just a representation of where a character lies on the totem-pole. It doesn't imply that a character a tier or two below CAN'T beat a higher tier character, it just means that the lower tier character has an uphill battle, that's all. Seriously, can you honestly tell me that Bowser is on par with Falco and Fox? How about Peach? Falcon? Marth? He's down there because HE'S NOT A GOOD CHARACTER. Tiers also show how well a character is represented in tournaments, so if people suddenly stopped playing fox and falco for a year, and, say, Ness became THE character to use, then the tiers would reflect that. That's how the tier system works, at least that's what I understand of it. (Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong^^)

I also hate that slogan because it's another example of people associating being queer as a bad thing. "Tiers are for queers" implies that only queers trust or use the tier system, and who would want to be queer?!

But, back to the topic. I like watching low tier characters play, it's always awesome seeing a good Mario or Ness player beasting people. I agree that you shouldn't just main a low tier in a tournament, but I don't think I'd want to switch characters too mid tournament just because it's crunch time. I have a hard enough time trying to get good with one character, let alone another character that I'm picking up just to win, ya know?

I think the whole "I couldn't betray [insert crappy character here] for another higher tiered character!" is scrub talk, like you said, BH. People who say that just limit themselves. If you genuinely don't like to play a certain character, then that's fine, but bull@#$@ don't about it.
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http://nosaintsnosinners.blogspot.com/
"Men talk of killing time, while time quietly kills them."
Dion Boucicault

[P]

It's always funny to me that people want to laugh off the tiers, and then look on impressed and excited when a lower tier character wins a match or tourney.

Well, if there's nothing inferior about that character, how can that victory be any more impressive then when a higher tier character wins.

It's because deep down we all know there are good and bad characters. People just need to align themselves with any cause at all to create an identity, so half the crowd says "TIERS" and the other half says "NO TIERS" when really, tiers are simply a ranking system and nothing more. They're not a local sports team or a faction to champion.

I agree with Aggro btw on the Queers thing. Either someone thinks that tiers are only for same-sex relationships for some reason, or they think that people who fall for the same gender are lower or worse than people who aren't, and that seems way more wrong than whether or not the Smash community believes in the power of Donkey Kong.
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"One of humanity's worst crimes is Mario RPG, in which Koopas you could previously just slaughter with reckless abandon were suddenly these dudes you had to take turns with to murder.

This is unacceptable."

[HTN DarkYoshi]

In my honest opinion, I don't think the person that made the slogan was being directly offensive. I think he was just trying to find a word to rhyme with tiers. I perosonally don't think badly about the term "queer". I honestly think it was the first word to come to his mind that rhymed with "tier". I just like the slogan because, to me, he is mainly insulting the tier system. If I could, I would totally be bashing people with my Wiimote, Classic Controller, or Gamecube controller.

The main reason I dislike tiers is because it basically is ranking characters to be better than others. I DON'T like this. It's totally tiring and boring to constantly see high tier characters fight other high tier characters. Falco vs Marth or Fox vs Metaknight or the list goes on. Why should said low tier character even be in the game, if the character is that bad in tournys? Tiers are telling me that this character sucks and you should never use him or her. Maybe it's because I don't play competively. I personally think people should use their favorite character and play that way. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but obviously, tiers are saying what characters are used most. So, almost everyone else must think they have to use one of those high tiers just to win.

To Aggro: Before you start saying I know nothing about tiers, you need to rethink what you said. I understand what tiers are about. I just personally hate them. It makes certain characters outcasted and no one wants to use them. So basically, why put in the other characters when they are almost never going to be used? Tiers, to me, basically says if the character isn't good enough, don't play them. I know the game's characters all have a diversity to each of them and thus that's a good thing. But it's horrible to see under or unused characters. I was never disagreeing that they can't win, but it sure makes it very hard if a skilled player is using a high tier character. No, I am not saying Bowser is on par with Falco or Fox. But, Bowser is a good character if used properly. However because of tier ranking, almost no one wants to use him. Lower tier characters are just brushed aside and almost never cared about. This is why I hate tiers. I am just sick and tired of seeing the same characters play against each other. Don't get me wrong. I love watching low tier play against a low tier. To me, it is A LOT more exciting to see who wins that, because of the two characters are almost never used.

To P: The victory is more impressive, because of the character, whom is lower tier, won. If a high tier beats out a high tier, it's just ho-hum. High tier characters playing the other high tiers is just old and repeatitive. Low tier winning against a high tier is so much more exciting because the lower tier overcame near impossible odds and won. And, this is assuming both players are roughly equal skill to each other, as if they were both playing high tiers. Sorry, it's too repeatitive to see the same characters play each other. It's not always like that, but most of the time, I see said high tier fight another high tier. It got old with me, ever since Melee.
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I am a Highly Trained Newbie! I am Dark Yoshi. Prepare yourself! HTN shall prevail.



Konota owns you at any video game! Especially the Street Fighter series.

[Aggro]

[HTN DarkYoshi]

Regardless of how it's explained, the tier system just doesn't work well to me. I do care for the tournement scene, but only to a certain degree. I do understand that developers don't understand the tier system. I'm not blaming them. I'm only saying that tiers kill diversity among the game. And no, I am not saying the game is unbalanced. I feel Brawl/Melee/SSB are very balanced games, more balanced than some games I've played. The tier system is just a tool to rank characters based on performance, but kills diversity.

I can't argue for or against you on Street Fighter 3 Third Strike. I never played the game. But, I'll take your word for it.

Like I said before, I care about the tourny scene, to a certain degree. I just don't care for the tier system. I said it before and say it again. It kills the diversity, just because some characters are obivously better than others. In my honest opinion, those tourny players just choose a high tier character, because of their ranking on the tier list, and practice up just to be with the other big boys. If one character is absolutely awesoem at a game, many others will follow suit just to stay on top of the game. Thus, you have one person choosing a character, performs well, and it starts a chain reaction.

Sure, there is a tier system in place, to rank characters. That tier system is going to always be broken in my eyes. Would you care for me to elaborate in person? Personally, I get my points much better across than online. Don't ask why. I just seem to explain better in person.
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I am a Highly Trained Newbie! I am Dark Yoshi. Prepare yourself! HTN shall prevail.



Konota owns you at any video game! Especially the Street Fighter series.

[KYAG]

[Aggro]

[Blood Hawk]

Tier system is broken?

The only thing broken about tiers is MK, which is why he's in a tier of his own.
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[Aggro]

[Blood Hawk]

My wording was bad, it was supposed to be a joke referring to MK being in the Broken tier. I didn't mean to insinuate that tiers were broken due to MK. XD
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[Mr.Moo]

Ummm HTN, Idk if you've noticed or not, but most "casual" gamers that play SSB, play there favorite characters. At SP I see alot of Kirbys, Pikachus, Marios, Links, and other lower tierd characters.

Before I learned about the Tiers, I played as Fox because I thought he was better than everyone. I'm that kind of person, but most people don't care. They just wanna have fun with the game. I wanted to beat everyone, so I dropped Kirby, and started playing Fox. I didn't know anything about the Smash scene, but I could easily tell Fox had an edge on everyone else.

The funny thing is, after I learned about the tiers, I dropped Fox and picked up Peach. I only did that for a couple reasons. One, her down smash. First time I cought my bro in that I was sold. 2, Peach is hot. and 3, She really felt like a character I could play. I felt like she didn't have that big of a learning curv, and I felt like I flowed right with her.

My point is, The tier lists are just a ranking system. No matter what anyone says, people will always rank characters to find the best one.
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"Apparently, I'm top tier..." -

[Blood Hawk]

[Mr.Moo]

LOL Pat. I actually picked up Sheik because I'm a cheap ***hole.
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"Apparently, I'm top tier..." -