At what point is a character cheap?

Aggro · Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 952

What do you guys think makes a character cheap? Does a character have to be easy to use to be cheap, or is there something else? What makes characters like Sheik and Peach any more cheap then fox? Do some of these characters get a bum rap because of people crying foul at getting out played (as is the case with people calling fox cheap for shine spiking people right off the bat, for example)?

One other thing to think about: If there are a lot of cheap characters in a fighting game, does that make the game balanced overall?

Heartless · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:40 am Post subject:

i say unblockable spammming makes a character cheap IMO

examples like MK in brawl, down smash on peach, etc.

thats about all i could pinpoint on a cheap character, because you have to still mindgame/predict to use that strategy.

if your smarter, you should have little trouble
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Aggro · Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 952

I don't think MK qualifies as cheap, he's just flat out broken.

Mr.Moo · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:46 am Post subject:

I agree with the "easier to use" theory.

An example would be me chaingrabing Brian's ganny. Even tho his character can do it to mine, Sheik is much easier to use than Ganondorf.

I also think people start calling characters cheap because some characters have advantages over some characters that others don't. Peach players call Marth players cheap cuz of his stupid sword, and how peach is forced to turnip camp to even do anything. Marth players call Sheik cheap cuz how she chainthrows the hell out of him. Fox players call themselves cheap cuz they know they are.

But I think aslong as some characters are better than others, we will always hear the cheap word. And aslong as Fox is around, you'll always hear me say it.
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The Duelist · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject:

The only character I can think of off the top of my head that truly felt cheap was Talim from Soul Calibur II.

In matches with ringouts on, she could not lose. She had this relatively simple combo that took maybe 5 minutes to learn that was an instant ring out with two strings of it, maybe three if it was a large stage. There was no risk to use it either.

Characters like Fox, with shinespikes, aren't cheap--that takes a lot of skill to master and it's still avoidable and Fox is still at decent enough risk since SDs are still quite possible out over the edge like that.
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Mr.Moo · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject:

P · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:45 pm Post subject:

I don't think Duelist said anything about the rest of Fox's arsenal. I think he's just speaking about the shinespike.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're actually calling Fox cheap.

For me, I think there's two definitions of cheap, and people tend to use one or the other. No one knows what someone means when they say it though, so there's a lot of arguments that maybe shouldn't happen if we were all on the same page, semantically.

I think there's the "unfair" definition and the "cheesy" definition. People who use cheap as "unfair" think that a move like Rest, Shine, or Aerial Fireballs is unbalanced and causes a huge advantage for the player with that move in their arsenal. They feel that the victories one earns with characters using this style are invalidated.

Then I think there's the "cheese" category, where someone may say "that's so cheap!" when they get thrown or chaingrabbed over and over, they face a character with great range, or they get caught in some of the above moves. The "cheese" version denotes that something isn't fun to fight or is considerably easier to utilize then other moves or characters, but they wouldn't call the move or tactic or character unfair. They just think it's "cheesy."

I myself usually fall into the "cheesy" use of the word. I've been around enough fighting games and tournaments and seen enough tactics and styles and moves to know there's very few things in any worthy game that can truly be called "unfair" cheap. I use the word instead to denote when I think something is a bit too easy or too simplistic and I get annoyed by it. I never think it's unfair though. I just think it's cheesy, which, in the world of competitive games means jack squat and is just me complaining :)

Things that I find cheesy-cheap are MK's tornado, Jigglypuff's Rest, the chaingrabbing, R.O.B.'s camping in general, certain classes in World of Warcraft, Shotgun-Camping a room in Halo 3, things like that. None of that I would call unfair though.

That's what I think the word breaks down into for most people. For some, it's unfair, for others it means cheesy or easy.
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Mr.Moo · Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject:

I hate how fox can just waveshine you, to grab up throw, to fox ladder. That is pretty much a 70% unavoidable combo =\.... + Fox can finish you anytime with waveshine to upsmash. I've played some pretty dam good fox players, and its UBER annoying. You don't even have to make a mistake for them to own you. Just put up your shield and your dead =\
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Blood Hawk · Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 4:24 am Post subject:

Mr.Moo · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:02 am Post subject:

Blood Hawk · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:18 am Post subject:

It does have a few frames of start up and most projectiles stop it from executing and may cause MK to accidentally Drill Rush. You slowly learn prime times when MKs are going to use it and can effectively stop it even if he gets it off with most characters.

Half the cast has anti nado moves that just need timing and some prediction to pull off. Marth can UP B out of it and counter it. ICs and MK can dair out of it. Snake has nades. Falco can laser and shine it. Diddy can Nanner it. Lucario can F-smash and Aura Sphere it. Good D3s u-tilt MK out of Nados all the time. If D3 has the time and calls it right, F-smash knocks MK out of Nado too and can be a surprise easy KO. Go watch Atomsk, his D3 does both methods consistently.

Some characters have no answer, like Wario for instance. Most mid or higher tiers can do something about it though.

As long as I've played Brawl competitively, Nado is nowhere near the pain that Shuttle Loop is. Nado also only does like 6%-8% per Nado where Shuttle Loop does like 12%-15% on the first strike not to mention the follow up that is guaranteed at lower percents. It can also be used out of shield..... .-.
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Mr.Moo · Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject:

From my time of playing Brawl, I've learned that MetaKnight is one big combo.
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Blood Hawk · Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject:

That's about the gist of it yeah. His moves all chain easily, are fast, and have near zero lag.... Sakurai sure wanted to go out with a bang, and MK is as big of a bang as you can do IMO.

Though why MK and not Kirby is my question? A little biased are we Sakurai?
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